Which camera body?

Discussion in 'Canon EOS Digital SLRs' started by Vagabond_20, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. Vagabond_20

    Vagabond_20 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Equipment:
    Canon 450D, Canon 70D,
    Canon 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 "dogtoy"
    Canon 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM
    Canon 75-300 mm f/4-5.6 III
    Canon 100 mm 1:2.8 USM
    Canon 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS STM
    Hello there!

    A warning: this is going to be long, so I thank in advance anyone who is going to read it and provide inputs :)

    As I anticipated in my presentation message, I'm about to purchase a new camera body and mainly due to budget limits I have narrowed down the choice to 2 camera bodies.

    I'm a hobbyist photographer and I love natural photography in particular. I am a biologist and I usually take pictures during fieldwork or hiking trips. I rarely go/organize photography-exclusive expeditions (I will in the future but I don't have the time now), this means that I usually have a backpack full of fieldwork/hiking equipment and I stuff the DSLR and lenses in it. I mainly take macro pictures of insects and small fauna when on the go during fieldwork, meaning that I need to take quick pictures in a wide variety of light conditions.
    I also enjoy taking landscape pictures (especially when going camping) and I occasionally like to do a bit of street photography when visiting new cities.
    In the future I plan to expand my photographical horizon towards "sit-and-wait" type of photography, especially to take pictures of big mammals and birds (or at least try to eheh). I would also like to try a bit more of long exposure/nighttime photography since some friends gifted me a good Manfrotto tripod some years ago, though I guess I'd need to buy better lenses for that.

    My current camera body is a 10-years old Canon 450D. I love that camera, it has been perfect for my style of photography since it doesn't weight too much and allowed me to take some good pictures. Although in some situations it has not been ideal: during fieldwork on cloudy days (which can be pretty often during springtime here), I was forced to raise the iso and this camera doesn't handle well the noise above 400 iso, which has been somewhat limiting. Given what I just wrote, one could think that an updated Rebel/three digits body would fulfill my photographic needs, they don't weight too much and have larger sensors and new processors than the 450D, nevertheless I have tried some mid range-pro cameras during the years (5D mark II-III, 60D, 70D) and I fell in love with them to the point that I want one.
    My budget is limited, so I was considering buying a used 70D and while searching I also came across the 77D which is in my financial range and seems interesting enough. I could probably afford a 80D body, but as I plan to invest in new lenses as well, I refrained from considering it.
    Doing a bit of homework, I guess the pros-cons of the two cameras are (not counting the video part which I'm not interested to):

    Canon 70D:
    -Tropicalization: this would help since I do fieldwork in places where there's a lot of dust on the roads and trails.
    -Autofocus: seems better than the 77D. I'm currently not using autofocus that much but I will have to use it more for sit-and-wait photography.
    -Burst: 7 flaps per second, will be useful in the future.
    -Longer lasting battery
    -Pentaprism viewfinder: brighter than the pentamirror counterpart and also covers more

    Canon 77D
    -Some say it is a rebel in disguise ahah
    -Weights less, though no tropicalization
    -Larger sensor and newer processor: this would help in low-light conditions (the cloudy days I mentioned before).

    So, to me there are no dealbreakers between the two cameras and I was going to choose based only on the offers I get. But there may be aspects I'm not considering which could make lean towards one of the two cameras.
    On a side note, I was also offered a used 5D mark II and while I love that camera, I see no point in upgrading to full-frame yet but if I'm mistaken, I'm willing to consider it as well.

    So that's all, thank you for reading and for your inputs!
     

  2. johnsey

    johnsey Site Moderator Staff Member Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    Fargo, ND
    Equipment:
    5dMk2, 20D, 70-200 2.8 L IS, 100mm 2.8 Macro USM, 50m 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 17-40mm 4.0 L, Rokinon 14mm 2.8; Pixma Pro-100
    Well a few initial thoughts, sounds like you value lightweight in your kit, so the better the body the bigger it will be. For that a digital rebel level camera may suit you in the short term, can you pick up a generation back cheaply off local buy and sell groups/sites? That would keep cost minimal and upgrade the 450d you have to something you should find usable.

    Its hard to recommend what is right for someone, for instance I find it a hard sell to invest in a entry level body like the rebel for the cost, upgrading to the 80d there is plenty of value and more customization for your money, to me anything below it feels like a point and shoot and I would rather just use my iPhone. I don't think you can go wrong with the 5d2 either, i wouldn't trade mine for a 70d let a lone a 77d. That said it is bigger and heavier than what you are used to.

    Invest in good glass first that is where the money is best spent,
     
    Vagabond_20 likes this.
  3. Vagabond_20

    Vagabond_20 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Equipment:
    Canon 450D, Canon 70D,
    Canon 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 "dogtoy"
    Canon 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM
    Canon 75-300 mm f/4-5.6 III
    Canon 100 mm 1:2.8 USM
    Canon 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS STM
    Hi Johnsey!

    Thank you for taking some time to read that wall of text and for the suggestions!

    Maybe you're right and I should broaden a bit my search. I had a look on a couple of websites for used 750D/760D bodies and oddly enough their price is close to those of a used 70D (there's a 100$ difference more or less).
    And I decided to try the used 5D mark II if it's still available, to see if it's in good shape and also just to try out one after many years; the last time I had one in my hands I loved it.
    What concerns me a bit is the cost of the EF lenses, I wanted to buy a 10-18mm EF-S together with the 70D and if I understand correctly the closest (and cheapest) counterpart would be the tamron 17-35mm (700$).

    Well, I guess I have food for thought ahah

    Cheers!
     
  4. GDN

    GDN Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2018
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    South Island, NZ
    Equipment:
    A little Canon stuff
    Just to add to what Johnsey said.

    If I were you, I would look at used as my first choice. But I am lucky as there is a used camera shop in my location. But with reading your post, it really depends on your shooting environment. What I mean is that I am happy to be out in the cold, the heat, and when it is wet. So I prefer a camera that is not unhappy to get a little wet. Looking at your list, if you are out and about a lot, I would go for the 70D because of being by the sounds of it, a little more weather resistant. Also, as it has a pentaprism. I am not sure if the 77D has a pentamirror, but if you are a glasses wearer, the pentaprism is better. I own aps-c cameras, but if I were you, I would look at the 5D ii. If you could have a play and see how it compares at higher ISO to your current camera. If you stick with a dslr, your choices are going to be a slightly heavier camera, but in the hand they will feel better.

    Lens wise. Buy the best that you can afford. It is worth putting your money into good glass. Camera bodies are always being superseded by a newer models. Not so much with glass. I see that you do a lot of macro shooting, so maybe a set of extension tubes and a small flash unit.

    Gary
     
    Vagabond_20 likes this.
  5. johnsey

    johnsey Site Moderator Staff Member Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    Fargo, ND
    Equipment:
    5dMk2, 20D, 70-200 2.8 L IS, 100mm 2.8 Macro USM, 50m 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 17-40mm 4.0 L, Rokinon 14mm 2.8; Pixma Pro-100
    Well the EF-S is a crop only lens, and its not one of canon's L lenses, hence the cheaper price. The Tamron would be one with higher quality build and glass. I have no experience with the Tamron lens to say how sharp it is, but I am not a fan of variable aperture, and you can get the Canon 17-40 L 4.0 at a similar price point which I imagine would perform even better.

    But yes, a quality zoom lens will get expensive quickly. But with the price you will get lenses less prone to vignetting, chromatic aberration, sharper images, more robust build to lens, and better weather sealing. The way to look at it is you can buy a $300 plastic lens and upgrade it later when it fails or you want better quality, or you can invest in the high quality lens which will last for decades if well cared for.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    Vagabond_20 likes this.
  6. Vagabond_20

    Vagabond_20 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Equipment:
    Canon 450D, Canon 70D,
    Canon 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 "dogtoy"
    Canon 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM
    Canon 75-300 mm f/4-5.6 III
    Canon 100 mm 1:2.8 USM
    Canon 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS STM
    Gary and Johnsey, thank you very much for your suggestions!

    So now the choice is between 5D mark II and the 70D! The 77D is out of the picture mainly due to the high prices of the Argentinian market.
    For the 70D and the 5D, I've got two offers:
    --a 70D (1000 shutter count, practically new) + 18-55 mm = 670$
    --5D mark II (140 000 shutter count) + 17-40 mm = 1200$ (700$ for the camera and 500$ for the lens)

    The 70D offer is a really good one, usually used ones with higher shutter counts are always above 750$ body only. The 18-55 is included in the offer and I would just use it as a backup.
    The 5D mark II offer is ok, though I could find newer 5D for 100-150$ less. 500$ for the 17-40 is a bargain (at least considering the local market),unfortunately the owner wants to sell both pieces together and won't accept offers for the lens only (in that case I could have grabbed a used 5D for much less elsewhere).

    Financially wise, the difference is relevant, were I to buy the combo 5D mark II + 17-40mm, I would deplete my savings in an instant. But on the other hand, as I said before I wanted to buy a wide angle lens together with the 70D. Johnsey your comment prompted me to search a bit more about the 10-18mm and it seems to have some relevant drawbacks for landscape pictures (a friend of mine suggested that lens but he hasn't used it that much for landscapes apparently), and I found that many suggest buying at least the canon 10-22 (600$). So, the final balance would actually be even between the two offers and my savings would be depleted the same ahah

    Going back to technical pros and cons, there are two aspects that give me pause about the 5D in relation to handheld macro photography:
    --A full frame sensor would mean getting closer to the subject to get a picture at the same magnification as an aps-c; with my 100mm macro this info would be relevant as getting too close to some insects will scare them off. There are also heated debates on the web about the differences in depth of field between the two sensors, I haven't read everything there is and I don't understand all the details yet so I can't comment.
    --The weight of the camera, the 5D is heavy! crouching in the dirt all day long won't be as easy as with the 450D. Still, even the 70D weighs more than the 450D so both present the same problem to some extent.

    I should probably diversify my macro strategy with a good flash and a tripod but that is not going to happen anytime soon (as I said in the first message I mainly shoot during fieldwork).

    I will try the 5D and see how it performs, how it feels (mainly for the weight) and I shall decide during the weekend while also searching a bit more the market.

    Thank you both for your inputs! Cheers,

    Nicola
     
  7. johnsey

    johnsey Site Moderator Staff Member Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2017
    Messages:
    330
    Location:
    Fargo, ND
    Equipment:
    5dMk2, 20D, 70-200 2.8 L IS, 100mm 2.8 Macro USM, 50m 1.4, 85mm 1.8, 17-40mm 4.0 L, Rokinon 14mm 2.8; Pixma Pro-100
    With regards to the sensor/magnification situation, you sensor does not magnify the lens, it is still the same 100mm magnification. The difference is that your 70d body will only see 2/3 of the viewable area of the lens because it is 2/3 the size of the sensor on a full frame. So it is essentially cropping the image, not magnifying it.. If you want to go wide the clear winner is full frame as you will utilize the most from your expensive glass. Weight should be negligible 1.66 vs 1.86 lbs roughly between those two bodies.

    For macro I would consider a good tele-converter or extension tubes if you are worried about distance from subject. 50/100/180 are the common mm for a dedicated macro, so 100 is commonly used on APC and Full frame bodies. You could also upgrade to the 180mm someday but I'm not sure its necessary.
     
    Vagabond_20 likes this.
  8. GDN

    GDN Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2018
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    South Island, NZ
    Equipment:
    A little Canon stuff

    I don't have a full frame camera, so I can only speak about an aps-c camera.

    By all means, see how you get on with the 5D. It should be great for wide angle landscape shots and long exposure/night time images. For this reason alone, I am eyeing up a full frame camera.

    For macro, I would probably go more for an aps-c camera for the longer working distance with the same lens.

    So, what is the best answer. In some ways, there is none. Both are a compromise. In an ideal world, buy both, and use the best camera for each situation. Have a play with the 5D, see how you get on with it. Compare it to how it works and feels against your current camera and make your choice then.

    Gary
     
    Vagabond_20 likes this.
  9. Vagabond_20

    Vagabond_20 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    16
    Equipment:
    Canon 450D, Canon 70D,
    Canon 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 "dogtoy"
    Canon 18-55 mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM
    Canon 75-300 mm f/4-5.6 III
    Canon 100 mm 1:2.8 USM
    Canon 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS STM
    Gary and Johnsey, thank you very much for your suggestions!

    "In an ideal world, buy both, and use the best camera for each situation." Gary I plan to do just that, I decided to buy the 70D so I can keep shooting macros with an aps-c sensor and in the meanwhile I'll try to save as much as possible and purchase a 5D mark II with a 17-40 mm in the near future.

    Both the camera and the lens have a lively used market, with some patience I should be able to buy both at an even cheaper price than the offer I got.

    I'll post some of the pictures I'll be taking with the 70D soon!!

    Cheers,

    Nicola
     
    rayallen likes this.
  10. porkphoto

    porkphoto Active Member Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    Messages:
    398
    Location:
    Southern California, USA
    Equipment:
    1DmkIII, 1DSmkII, 50d, 7d, 6d, 70d, 17-40 f4L, 24-70 f4L IS, 100 f2.8L IS macro, 200 f2.8L, 300 f4L IS, 300 f2.8L
    You won't go wrong with the 70D, it certainly is my most used body. Good luck with it.
     
  11. GDN

    GDN Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2018
    Messages:
    394
    Location:
    South Island, NZ
    Equipment:
    A little Canon stuff

    Excellent. I am pleased that you have made your choice. Looking forward to seeing some of your images.

    Gary
     

Share This Page